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paint questions
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SD44
Senior Member


Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 562
Location: Mississippi
paint questions

okay, getting ready to do my first paint job. after talking with kevin from paintucation i'm going with single stage urethane. so i go to a body supply store, pick out "bright dark blue metallic" from the 1985 ford truck section. after telling the guy that i also plan to spray underneath the trunklid and hood along with the doorjams, he suggests i get 5 quarts. so i've got $200 in my pocket thinking i'll have few extra bucks left to buy some tack cloths with. he comes back, after adding the reducer and activator to my paint total: $329 plus tax!!!!

i've had a couple people tell me this is outrageous, however i'd have to make a pretty long drive to go to another supply store, i live in a rural area. my dad gets a carolina auto supply catalog occasionally and they had an ad for paint as low as 59.95, yet it didn't state if it was urethane, enamel, base, etc. i called but it was afterhours so i gave them the paint code and told them to call me monday with a price for the paint and additives.


what should i do, is this reasonable for the paint and additive? is there a good place online to order automotive paint? i'm a newbie at this so i don't know what's reasonable and what isn't. the only other time i have bought paint was back in 1993, i bought two gallons of imron for $182. and i thought that was high back then, lol.
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Post Fri May 19, 2006 6:28 pm 
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oldracer
Member


Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 77
Location: Wilhoit Az.
Paint

That is ridiculous,I paid 129.00 for 1 gallon of urethane, a quart of reducer and a pint of hardner.
Go to www.SmartShopperInc.com

Post Fri May 19, 2006 7:32 pm 
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oldracer
Member


Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 77
Location: Wilhoit Az.
Correction!

My bad! Go to www.SmartShoppersInc.com
Make sure you type it in like the above ,or you will be shopping for everything but paint.
"Old"

Post Fri May 19, 2006 7:47 pm 
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mygirls63
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Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Kansas

Alot depends on type of paint, brand & QUALITY.
I have done alot of paint jobs over the years and cheap paints are ok for a 20 footer or a car you want to look better to sell. But if you plan to keep it & keep it looking good, prepare to spend upwards to 600.00 to 700.00 for all you need, the materials from start to finish, ie: primers, sealers, self etching primer or epoxy primer for the main undecoat before anything else gets applied.
Name brand paints such as BASF, PPG, Dupont, Sikkens are premium paints that will last a lifetime if properly applied. They spend millions developing new & better products. Most quality stores will actually provide some training & tech assistance for you as well.
The color you choose will affect the cost greatly as the toner or tint is the big cost factor, followed by any pearls that might be in the mixture. Red is the highest, followed by black & blue, white being the cheapest.
There are some mid range products such as factory pack colors, Urethane clears & primers that will provide good long term results as well. I use a clear coat in this range that polishes nicely. I prefer to use Name brand colors though as I tried cheaper paints & have had adhesion problems such as chipping very easy. Also the metallics in the cheaper paints is bigger & won't match if you were blending a panel of existing factory paint. While not a problem when doing a complete repaint, consider matching the paint on a repair later. The cheaper paint companies also do not spend much money developing color mixing formulas. Quality paints can have upwards of 10 variants of one color to allow for proper matches. What if you can't obtain the economy paint later?
Good paint from a quality paint store is expensive. It costs alot to buy the mixing station, toners, supplies, & training they go through to mix a quart of paint for you. Why not spend a little extra & do it right once than to do it again later because the BARGAIN price paint didn't last?
Sorry for the long rant, and believe it or not, I do not work for any paint company! Just done this long enough to have learned a few lessons along the way.
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1963 Fairlane Mini tub 10pt cage New 408" C4 Canfield 195CC heads Comp solid roller Victor Jr. 9" w/4.11? gears Moser spool & 35 spline axles. www.marksullense85carburetors.com

Post Fri May 19, 2006 8:16 pm 
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eatonmotorsports
Junior Member


Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 49
Location: franklin, ky
paint

To talk about how expensive it is to pait something. I work at a local collision shop and from time to time we do other things like a 23 T-Bucket body ( just the shell ) for a pulling tractor in the 3 stage candy red $2200.00, and here is the best - we just painted a SOAP BOX DERBY car for alittle kid met. blue $900.00, But I can promise that kid had the best looking derby car ever. I agree with the other guy buy the better paints, it will pay off in the long run. Here is anothet example we only use PPG, I mean everything is PPG, the hardner we use for our primer is $73.00 a quart, and the buffing compound is $117.00 a gallon. I asked what it would take in just materials to do my wagon , now this is figuring everything from the first piece of sandpaper to the final coat of clear and he said around $2000.0, just materials.
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Post Fri May 19, 2006 10:29 pm 
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oldracer
Member


Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 77
Location: Wilhoit Az.
Paint

I agree about the quality of the high dollar paint, however I am sure most of the members of this forum aren't rich and are going to be happy with a "20 footer" most of the time.
I talked to a guy with a 66 Falcon and asked him how much his paint job cost (Nice two tone, dark mettalic brown over beige.) he said $7500.
I just have a little over that in my whole car!
"Old"

Post Tue May 23, 2006 12:09 pm 
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jswordy
Junior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 19

I agree with mygirls63...quality is the issue. Now you need to put the price of a quality topcoat into perspective relative to what you have already spent to make a quality surface to topcoat. If you have saved your body supply receipts, and you are not just doing a quick wet sand and shoot job, you probably will find that you have at least the $330 in supplies and primer/surfacer just to get ready to shoot a smooth, quality job. So then why would you top all your hard work with cheap paint?

I use PPG exclusively, and they have a line called Omni that is cheaper paint that will get the job done. You might inquire about it. I use the Omni epoxy primers, but go top grade for the rest. On the urethane, be VERY careful of your breathing apparatus when using a catalyzed urethane or polyurethane. A self-contained breathing apparatus is recommended. Using a paint mask can expose you to some nasty harmful vapors that will have you coughing for days. If you do go with a cannister mask, be sure it seals well around your face. Use a dab of Vaseline around your chin area where the mask will seal to help, and remain aware of sealing throughout the job. I have breathed that stuff and regretted it.

My personal choice of paint is a high-quality acrylic enamel with hardener and an additive called Smoothie which prevents paint problems like fisheye and flows the paint a bit better. Acrylic enamel is available as single or two stage, and it's a lot easier on the lungs as far as breathing apparatus. Any cannister filter mask will work.

The urethanes have their advantages, but just be careful about breathing it.

As always, your mileage may vary.

Post Tue May 23, 2006 4:53 pm 
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SD44
Senior Member


Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 562
Location: Mississippi

quote:
Originally posted by jswordy:
On the urethane, be VERY careful of your breathing apparatus when using a catalyzed urethane or polyurethane. A self-contained breathing apparatus is recommended. Using a paint mask can expose you to some nasty harmful vapors that will have you coughing for days. If you do go with a cannister mask, be sure it seals well around your face.


i bought one of these masks in a bag at the body supply store. it has charcoal and the two replacable filters on each side. is this sufficient? should i wear anything over my eyes?
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Post Tue May 23, 2006 8:33 pm 
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mygirls63
Senior Member


Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Kansas
Price...

I am not rich by all means either, however, $600 or so for quality paint & supplies is within reach. I am fortunate enough that I have the shop & equipment to do this kind of work so labor is a moot point when I do it for myself.

Maybe I am biased, but I would rather invest in paint once & enjoy it for years to come. Cheaper paints could cut the price in half or more for supplies, but if your paying someone $35-$50 an hour to do that work, the labor is the meat of the refinish bill. Why scrimp on paint?

Their are some lower level paints made by the major manufacturers as jswordy mentioned, such as OMNI, but I used their single stage as well as base/clear & It was ok, but it still didn't hold up as well as PPG's main base coat line has. Velspar is cheaper & was good for awhile but I also started experiencing adhesion problems with it. However they either changed the binder formulas or my local supply house has cheapened up the mix!

My paint of choice is PPG base/clear over catalyzed urethane primer & sealer. The clear coat makes the color so much deeper. Also you an use some different pearls in the clear for some cool color flops (makes repairs a bitch though).

As far as the masks are concerned I use the type of masks that SD44 is asking about but I spray in a well ventilated area. When I built my last shop I incorperated a fan system & filters to make it a giant spray booth. This is my choice. I WOULD NOT RECCOMEND the masks alone. I would say use a fresh air hood if possible. Its your health. (lawyers disclaimer!)

Beware of these products if not respected, they are catalists, meaning they dry chemically and anywhere including in your lungs. I will not say these masks are all you need, as these products can kill you. Use your head & protect your self properly & wisely.

If you don't feel you can do the job it is no shame to admit it & hire it done. It takes alot of tools & equipment to do it right, more than just a paint gun!

If you can & have the ability I say go for it & be proud, but do it safe so your around to hear the compliments later!
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1963 Fairlane Mini tub 10pt cage New 408" C4 Canfield 195CC heads Comp solid roller Victor Jr. 9" w/4.11? gears Moser spool & 35 spline axles. www.marksullense85carburetors.com

Post Tue May 23, 2006 10:27 pm 
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jswordy
Junior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 19

Right on, mygirls63. Guys also find out when they go the cheap route that paints like Omni do not have the viscosity or pigment content of the premium lines. That means they do not cover as well, which means you will use more paint to do the same job. (CO$T.) It also means you run the risk of more sags.

Lots of body shops do use the price line paints, but they do so for just the reasons you pointed out, to hold down material costs so the bid will be lower cuz labor is most of the bid.

The nice thing about doing this as a hobby now (as opposed to when I was a pro bodyman) is that I have the time to do things. Time is the enemy in production bodywork, and most of the decisions made in that environment are geared toward making it faster. A lot of products are aimed at speed, too, but are not necessarily the best at longevity or thoroughness of repair.

It is a different set of priorities doing your own car, and I like this set better. LOL.

Post Wed May 24, 2006 9:08 am 
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SD44
Senior Member


Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 562
Location: Mississippi

okay, i went ahead and purchased the supplies from this store. this is a breakdown of what it all cost:

the paint, reducer, and hardener are all "4TH DIMENSION", by Western Automotive Supplies. Never heard of them.

1 gallon paint - $160.00
1 quart paint - $37.25
1 gallon reducer - $38.03
2 pints hardener - $47.29 X 2 = 94.58


after getting home, i looked in the box and realized he only gave me one pint of hardener even though i was charged for two. he gave me no stir sticks or filters either.

he said to mix it 8-4-1
he said to hold the trigger on my gun (gravity feed gun) and set the gauge to 65 psi.
said that the paint has a 10-15 minute flash time between coats.


remember this is single stage urethane. all of this sound about right?
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Post Thu May 25, 2006 8:46 pm 
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mygirls63
Senior Member


Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Kansas

I haven't shot any western paint, so I can't reply about the ratios.

The air setting seems high to me. I normally shoot all coatings at about 25 to 35 PSI max when using a gravity feed gun that is not HVLP. Less with HVLP. I don't want to try & explain HVLP settings to you if you aren't using one as it would confuse the issue!

The higher the air pressure setting the more material you will use & it will "bounce" back off the surface & will be air borne overspray. It will also cause the final finish to be "dry" (no shine & rough) which will require more buffing.

I would suggest you go to Tractor supply or similar farm supply store & buy a cheap quart of enamal tractor paint & get an old or damaged panel & mix alittle bit of paint & practice spraying at different air pressures & try different "gun speeds" or the rate you move the gun left to right. Try different speeds to get the feel for proper application of material. Too slow will be nice & shiny but will sag or run. Too fast wil be dry. It takes time & practice to get it all together to laydown a good surface.

Let the paint flash between coats, you want it tacky not wet or completely dry between coats. You can detirmine this by touching a piece of paper or tape that you have used to mask with. Temperature & hunidity will make this time vary.

Set the fan pattern to as wide as you can, 9 to 12" max will be good. The fan adjustment is one of two knobs on the gun. It adjusts the width top to bottom of the spray pattern. Also overlap each pass about 50%. This means you overlap each coat by 1/2 each pass.

The other knob adjusts how much paint sprays in relation to the air. Most guns turn counterclockwise to add more paint & clockwise to spray less paint. Again do this while pulling the trigger & test on an old fender or a piece of paper taped to the wall. Set it about 1/2 way out & practice to get the feel of the gun & adjust it to suit your style & needs.

Some gravity feed guns will have a third knob but this is just another air regulator. Less air pressure will reduce the paint fan size & more is vice-versa. It will also affect how much paint actually sprays. All these setting affect each other. You will learn by practice on how to set everything. Having someone show you is a plus.
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1963 Fairlane Mini tub 10pt cage New 408" C4 Canfield 195CC heads Comp solid roller Victor Jr. 9" w/4.11? gears Moser spool & 35 spline axles. www.marksullense85carburetors.com

Post Thu May 25, 2006 10:01 pm 
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SD44
Senior Member


Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 562
Location: Mississippi

my gun is a hvlp.

okay, this is something i'm confused about. he said my gun needed to spray at 13-16 psi, and to get it spraying that at the tip i needed to set the gauge on the bottom of the gun to 65. so that makes no sense to me. i have been spraying primer with a similar hvlp gun at 20 psi on the guage. maybe i'm mis-wording his instructions but i believe that's the way he stated it. one good thing is that i'm spraying the underside of my hood and trunklid, so i can do those first to get a feel for everything, they don't have to be perfect.


i know you all are reading all of this shaking your heads and thinking, "man, this guy is gonna screw this up bigtime" but i'm okay with that if i do, this is a learning experience for me, this is not some high dollar showcar. it's just a weekend toy for me to drive locally . if the paint turns out too dull, can i wait another day then fine wetsand and buff it to a shine?
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Post Thu May 25, 2006 10:33 pm 
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mygirls63
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Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Kansas
HVLP

Consult your guns directions. HVLP guns are hard to explain in writing. I try to get 11-13 psi at the tip, but it is hard to tell as there is no way to gauge it at the tip! Most guns have a pressure drop built in and the manual will give you a ball park as to where to start. What gun do you have? One of mine is a Sharp gun which runs about $600 new but was a great investment as I used to run a body shop doing rebuilt cars & restorations. I shot alot of cars with it. I would set the regulator at between 26 to 29 psi depending on what paint I was shooting. My old Sata gun was completely different even though it was HVLP as well. I know most guys hate Sharp guns as they are a pain to learn to set right, but I love mine.

As far as polishing goes, wait a day or 2 before sanding & polishing. Urethane is tough stuff. Too soon and you will be garanteed to burn through on the edges, wait too long, say over 7 to 10 days & it will be very hard to get the shine back. Only color sand out the flaws & excessive surface texture. Then polish out the whole car with a medium cutting compound such as 3M's Perfect-It 2. Use foam pads as they run cooler & resist burn through some. You can start with a coarser pad for the first initial polish & follow it up with a second time with a fine polish pad. You could even use a finer compound the second time such as Perfect-It III, but Perfect-It II will do as well. Saves on buying several types of compounds. Finish it off with a hand glazing compound to help remove the swirl marks. Use it just like a car wax, BY HAND. Go slow & move from panel to panel frequently to help reduce heat build up. Use a SOFT cotton rag to wipe down each panel as you polish. Polish as needed until you acheive the results you desire. Be prepared to sling compound everywhere. The stuff stains every thing if you let it dry on the surfaces, so wipe it off frequently.

Take your time & enjoy the results. Polishing is a dirty labor intensive chore as is block sanding, but these are the steps thet acheive the best surface possible. Block sanding sucks but if you don't do a good job here it will show in the finished product.
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1963 Fairlane Mini tub 10pt cage New 408" C4 Canfield 195CC heads Comp solid roller Victor Jr. 9" w/4.11? gears Moser spool & 35 spline axles. www.marksullense85carburetors.com

Post Fri May 26, 2006 8:14 pm 
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SD44
Senior Member


Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 562
Location: Mississippi

well i sprayed it this morning.

the only major thing i seemed to have a problem with was finding a good setting for the spray fan. i started off with it pretty wide, yet it seemed like it was just misting the paint out, like someone sneezed on the car. then i drew it in to a 7 to 8 inch width and the shine seemed better but i ended up getting a few small runs. i let it back out some and seemed to have a slicker coat at the end.

i'll post some pics after i drive it home. like i said, this is my first painting attempt ever, so i'm not beating myself up too bad, i expected to make mistakes. the two main problems in noticed after i finished was the small runs in a couple places and that the color seemed darker in some places and lighter in others. so what can i do to fix this? as far as the small runs, should i wait a couple days then wet sand with 1500 grit and polish? and the shading difference, will that even out the more it cures?

worst case scenario, i have an unopened quart of paint still left over. if i wanted to go back over it, should i just fine wet sand with the 1500 and spray another coat or two?

any advice welcome, i'm just trying to learn, this isn't a showcar, lol.
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Post Sun May 28, 2006 3:49 pm 
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