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drive train questions

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Billy C
Junior Member


Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 19
drive train questions

Hi, I've been around but not active here. I am doing my 1st muscle car project at 54. I fell in to a '62 Fairlane 4 dr (I am a family guy) in running condition with decent paint/body/interior. 170 - 6 engine bolted to a C5 tranny. It looks good but is boring. I am doing a front to rear transplant/upgrade. I am making a few mistakes as I learn, nothing too expensive yet. I am mechanically literate, not a pro but good enuff for most stuff.
My purpose? I am 54 and can't afford the red sports car. My 18 yr old has a 77 Nova with a built 350 and I caught the fever. I want a good trade off between daily driver and muscle car with the lean being toward weekend poser muscle car. I don't plan on long trips or even driving it daily. I do want the engine lope and wide tires, loud pipes, arse jacked up a bit with decent acceleration but I won't be racing it, much. Good acceleration up thru 70 and then cruise. No hi speed stuff for this Grandpa. I'll save that for the bike. So, best balance between 70 mph cruise and hard launch.

Engine - I have a fresh '91 Mustang 302. Added -
- Crane 1.7:1 roller rockers
- SpeedPro CS195R cam, http://lh3.ggpht.com/_HZVZ9nWUJXM/TO1pG7QujhI/AAAAAAAABgM/ch4HA0WjRCM/s640/Speed%20Pro%20CS195R%20specs.JPG
- BBK shorty headers, long tube are just too expensive for the budget
- performer dual plane intake, Holley 600 carb
- May go to injected later but for now, no. Trying to keep things simple.
- serpentine belt setup, a/c delete, new accessories
- monster new radiator and electric fan cooling
- Different carb needed?


Tranny - I have a C5 that needs rebuilt and picked up a C4 with 302 bellhousing and stock donut that (supposedly) has 5k on a rebuild and was raced. It looks good. Both have the 26 spline input shaft and I bought the wrong 24 spline stall converter. So, the question arises, what stall speed should I be looking for. I'm thinking run the C4 due to the budget and the modest maybe 300 hp.
- B&M floor shifter
- Shift kit recommendations?
- Stall converter recommended stall speed?

Rear - I have an 8" open diff that I test at 1.75ish ratio??? Makes no sense to me.
- Staying with the 8" has been recommended by a local pro restorer.
- I want Trac Loc. 3.25 - 3.50 ratio?
- I will be doing 70 mph jaunts, maybe 150 mile round trips to Dallas once a month and 20 mile runs more often. I do want some push back in the seat too. Can I have both? Rolling Eyes
- Tires/wheels might even require a different axle for width considerations. The budget would be real happy to find an 8" with TracLoc and 3.50 gearing for a few bills.

Tires/wheels - What is the biggest tire I can stuff under the rear. My quick measurement says 12" is as big as will fit and 11" is probably a safer bet. Also I am fond of aluminum slots, thinking 15" diameter. What should I be looking for there. Width and offset.

I know this is a long winded first post but I have a million questions and wanted to throw as much detail in there as I could. Any input is appreciated even if it is to tell me I'm a moron for doing it this way. I'm all about saving time/money/redoing stuff. Thanks!

The car - http://lh3.ggpht.com/_HZVZ9nWUJXM/TO1yDQGszsI/AAAAAAAABgc/49QTkXR7UUU/s640/62%20Fairlane%20002.jpg


Thanks to all.
Billy C
I live in Canton, TX an hour East of Dallas. [/img]
_________________
62 Fairlane
302, 3/4 cam, 700 Holley, long tube headers, dual plane intake, AOD with streetable stall converter.
Canton, TX

Post Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:14 pm 
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mygirls63
Senior Member


Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Kansas

Your engine combo doesn't look to bad for your goals.

The cam isn't too radical, so "I" would look to get the converter stall between 2800 to 3200 RPM. Keep in mind you will need a good trans cooler. Any good trans shop should be able to provide you with a shift kit.

I would go bigger with the carb, probably at least a 650 DP. I would also run a single plane intake myself, but before everyone starts crying about power loss down low, at a bare minimum, I would use the RPM air gap, but "my" first choice is still a single plane manifold.

I would be surprised if you could fit a 12" tread width tire, let alone an 11" wide tire in the wheel well without a minitub.

As far as the 8" rear, it will probably live fine here with a street tire at this power level, but with a sticky tire, you are on borrowed time. I don't care what anyone says. Personally, for a nice budget rear axle, I would look for a V-8 8.8" Explorer axle (you need to measure it obviously) as you can find them with 31 spline axles and traction loc. I believe most will be in the 3.55 to 3.73 gear range. With a short tire that the Fairlane limits you to, you will be buzzing along on the highway though.

You might play with an online RPM calculator to see where it is RPM wise.

This is just my 2 cents worth, take it or leave it.

Good luck and have fun with your project.
_________________
Scott
1963 Fairlane Mini tub 10pt cage New 408" C4 Canfield 195CC heads Comp solid roller Victor Jr. 9" w/4.11? gears Moser spool & 35 spline axles. www.marksullense85carburetors.com

Post Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:03 pm 
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Billy C
Junior Member


Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 19

RPM calc, nice tool, thanks. I'm pretty much bummed by the results. Ballpark guess of 275/60-15, 3.20 gears and the C4 in 3rd a@ 70 mph will have me running 2800k + on the tach. The C4 3 spd does not give much room for getting bottom end and top end does it? It's gonna be wound up at hiway speed and I'll be looking for another gear. Is there an auto tranny with OD that will fit this car? I've heard an AOD tranny won't fit, true? Worst case is switch to a 5 spd manual and this car was a 3 on the tree, still has all the parts in the trunk. But, I'm 54 and my clutching days are behind me given the preference. I'll probably end up with a T-5 later on, huh?

I pulled a Victor Jr off that 302 and stuck it on the shelf. If I decide I need more rpms I can always switch back.



Mini-tub? I am looking at frame rail 1" from the sheetmetal on the wheelwell. Is that about how much you bought with the mini-tub?
_________________
62 Fairlane
302, 3/4 cam, 700 Holley, long tube headers, dual plane intake, AOD with streetable stall converter.
Canton, TX

Post Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:10 pm 
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mygirls63
Senior Member


Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Kansas

quote:
Originally posted by Billy C:
Ballpark guess of 275/60-15, 3.20 gears and the C4 in 3rd a@ 70 mph will have me running 2800k + on the tach. The C4 3 spd does not give much room for getting bottom end and top end does it?

Mini-tub? I am looking at frame rail 1" from the sheetmetal on the wheelwell. Is that about how much you bought with the mini-tub?


Not sure I understand what you mean about not much room for bottom end?

However, yes, you will be buzzing along.

An AOD will fit. It might take a little hammer work on the tunnel, but it will fit and has been done many times.

You can build an AOD to be pretty stout.

I would think that a C4 with a 3.25 to 3.55 gear wouldn't be bad, but it depends on your personal tastes.

I am going from memory, but I believe I gained 1 1/2 inches with the mini tub.

I am running a MT 28 x 9 slick (8.5" tread width, 10.8" section width), and I believe I have room for a 28 x 10 tire (12" section width), but that size tire would be pretty much the limit and clearance would be at the minimum (3/8 to 1/2").

I would be stuck with an 8" slick at the max without the mini tub. Every bit counts!
_________________
Scott
1963 Fairlane Mini tub 10pt cage New 408" C4 Canfield 195CC heads Comp solid roller Victor Jr. 9" w/4.11? gears Moser spool & 35 spline axles. www.marksullense85carburetors.com

Post Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:33 pm 
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Billy C
Junior Member


Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 19

Thanks Scott. Good news on the AOD. I got a big hammer. That will buy me some rpm room and allow a taller gear or be happy with more cruisability. I love forums and have been using several for this project. A lot of info out there but hard to sew it all together.

I am real confused on one thing. I am getting advice to use a 2800 - 3200 stall converter. Seems too high to be street-able. I see burnouts at every red light and won't the converter kick in and out at a 3000 rpm 70 mph cruise speed? I keep thinking 2000 rpm would be a great stall speed. Explain please, I'm trying to get my brain wrapped around this.
_________________
62 Fairlane
302, 3/4 cam, 700 Holley, long tube headers, dual plane intake, AOD with streetable stall converter.
Canton, TX

Post Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:41 pm 
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dapirate
Member


Joined: 25 May 2008
Posts: 69
Location: Atlanta

I know mygirls63 knows what he's talking about but I saw this article before I picked out mine and I think the best advice is to call the manufacture you want to go with.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/selecting_right_torque_converter/index.html

And then once you call, tell us which one they suggested. Smile
_________________
1962 Fairlane 500 4 Door w/'69 302 4V and C4

Post Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:12 am 
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mygirls63
Senior Member


Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Kansas

quote:
Originally posted by dapirate:
I know mygirls63 knows what he's talking about but I saw this article before I picked out mine and I think the best advice is to call the manufacture you want to go with.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/selecting_right_torque_converter/index.html

And then once you call, tell us which one they suggested. Smile


Good advice. There are many custom companies that make converters out there that will get you what you need.

As an example of what a loose converter will do, if you nail it, it will flash to it's stall speed, but if you ease into it normaly, you wouldn't notice it at all. If you were to drive up a steep drive, it would stall up before you move as well.
It won't kick in or out, but it will be slipping a little bit. You won't feel this at all, but it will generate more heat in the fluid, so a good cooler is a must, and you might see a small decrease in fuel mileage.

My converter stalls @ 6200 rpm. I can lope back down the return road @ 2500 rpm, no problem. Ease into the throttle and the car drives pretty much normal. Hammer it and the tach jumps right up there!

Talk to a convertor shop and tell them what your driving habits and goals are, they will set you down the right path.

In the end, it comes down to what you are after, daily driver, street strip, race car or trailer queen!
_________________
Scott
1963 Fairlane Mini tub 10pt cage New 408" C4 Canfield 195CC heads Comp solid roller Victor Jr. 9" w/4.11? gears Moser spool & 35 spline axles. www.marksullense85carburetors.com

Post Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:23 pm 
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GerryProctor
Senior Member


Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 660
Location: San Antonio, Tx

All I can add beyond Scott's perspective is most people make the mistake of buying a converter with too low a stall speed. The other mistake is cheaping out on the converter. You pay for quality and part of that is working with a manufacturer who will build a converter that you'll be happy with.

Post Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:53 pm 
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Billy C
Junior Member


Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 19

I lead a very busy life, who doesn't. This is a slow project and I see I am in deep, not over my head. I have time to build on paper first. You guys are gonna save me time and money. Sweet! No small project swapping the whole drive train on an old 60's car. I'm real happy with the 302 I have. I'll look at better heads a year down the road maybe. I can't afford to make this car an obsession. I think I have a pretty good handle on the stall thing now. 3k seems like a good target stall for my setup. I'll be watching all the usual sources for an AOD and might get lucky and find a good donut with it (some other poor bastid that did it wrong). Smile I'm still learning about rears. I like keeping my 8" and swapping out the whole carrier with a Trak-Loc and either 3.73 or 4.10 gears. I do like the idea of an 8.8 with the factory disc setup. I don't like the idea of having to weld or cut on it. Anyone done a direct swap of a 8.8 or 9"? If not direct how much is to be done to make one fit? I do not see this car ever topping 400 hp.
_________________
62 Fairlane
302, 3/4 cam, 700 Holley, long tube headers, dual plane intake, AOD with streetable stall converter.
Canton, TX

Post Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:47 pm 
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Billy C
Junior Member


Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 19

I lead a very busy life, who doesn't. This is a slow project and I see I am in deep, not over my head. I have time to build on paper first. You guys are gonna save me time and money. Sweet! No small project swapping the whole drive train on an old 60's car. I'm real happy with the 302 I have. I'll look at better heads a year down the road maybe. I can't afford to make this car an obsession. I think I have a pretty good handle on the stall thing now. 3k seems like a good target stall for my setup. I'll be watching all the usual sources for an AOD and might get lucky and find a good donut with it (some other poor bastid that did it wrong). Smile I'm still learning about rears. I like keeping my 8" and swapping out the whole carrier with a Trak-Loc and either 3.73 or 4.10 gears. I do like the idea of an 8.8 with the factory disc setup. I don't like the idea of having to weld or cut on it. Anyone done a direct swap of a 8.8 or 9"? If not direct how much is to be done to make one fit? I do not see this car ever topping 400 hp.
_________________
62 Fairlane
302, 3/4 cam, 700 Holley, long tube headers, dual plane intake, AOD with streetable stall converter.
Canton, TX

Post Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:47 pm 
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Billy C
Junior Member


Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 19

I did a test install on the 302 and bell housing. Fits but there are issues. Motor mounts don't match up. Shorty headers laugh at me for even thinking they would fit. What headers are people using here? Is there a list of bolt in fitments?

Pics if you want to go see. I won't direct display them to save space. Not sure how well accepted that practice is here, bandwidth does cost $.

http://community.webshots.com/album/579251946AxssCM
_________________
62 Fairlane
302, 3/4 cam, 700 Holley, long tube headers, dual plane intake, AOD with streetable stall converter.
Canton, TX

Post Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:16 pm 
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mygirls63
Senior Member


Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Kansas

I suspected that the headers would not fit, now we know.

Well, you can run Hooker Super Comp headers specificly for the Fairlane. They are pricey, around $480 for the set. Or Crites makes a set of headers for like $100 less, but from what I have seen they are a nightmare.
Maddog makes some as well. You will have to Google them.

However, I recently seen a '64 with Mustang headers and a 4 speed. The headers looked to fit real well on the car, but probably needed installed before the engine. This car DID NOT have cut shock towers.

If you know someone with a cheap set of mid 60's Mustang headers you can borrow, you might test fit those.

No matter what you get, there will be compromises. If I was doing it again, I would have tried the Mustang headers before the '62 - '65 specific Hookers. Mine fit good, but spark plug changes is a bitch, and I have cut towers!





As far as the motor mounts...the 6 cylinder mounts will not work. You will need V-8 specific mounts. You can find them on Ebay often.

Be aware that there are 2 different V-8 mounts, early pre 1965 and later. The difference is the bolt spacing where the mount bolts to the block. The early ones are 6" centers and the later ones are 7" centers. The block you have will require the late mounts.

Now...if you can only find the early mounts, you cam easily modify the early mounts, no problem. Or if you hate fabricating, Crites makes a motor mount of their own design that you can use.
_________________
Scott
1963 Fairlane Mini tub 10pt cage New 408" C4 Canfield 195CC heads Comp solid roller Victor Jr. 9" w/4.11? gears Moser spool & 35 spline axles. www.marksullense85carburetors.com

Post Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:32 pm 
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Billy C
Junior Member


Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 19

Scott. Thank you so much, you are Da Man! I was actually perusing ebay for those mounts when I saw this. Now I don't have to do the hours of research to pick the right set. The pics of the tower cuts are gold.

My BBK headers measure max 6" height and I tried working them in but I don't think so. I'll know for sure when I get the frame mounts to lock the engine in the correct position. I'm just guessing right now. We have a auto swap meet in town next weekend. 80% Chevy but I might just score a cheap set of Mustang headers and can measure what I find there.
_________________
62 Fairlane
302, 3/4 cam, 700 Holley, long tube headers, dual plane intake, AOD with streetable stall converter.
Canton, TX

Post Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:35 pm 
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outlawcaveman
Member


Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 54
Location: South Arkansas

I'm curious to know how your
engine will run with the 1.7 rocker arms.
That effectively increases your valve lift
way more than with stock (1.6) rockers arms,
thus, you may have more cam than desired.
With this being a 4-dr car (note: budget), it's easy
to see you're building a real sleeper.
I just built a 302 with a similar cam, but stock
1.6 ratio rockers. I used a dual plane hi-rise manifold
with spacer, somewhat similar to your setup looking at
the photos, and I used a 600 cfm Edlebrock, which I
tuned with different power-piston springs and metering
rods (from an available kit they offer for tuning),
for a little richer mixture, and this thing runs great.
I don't think I'd use a bigger carb if you're mainly running
on the street. JMO ... Please keep us informed on how this
engine runs, and don't retard your timing too much, or you'll
likely backfire some cold morning
and blow that power valve in that dern Holley carb.
Good luck with the '62 !!

Cool
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Post Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:52 pm 
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